Jon Collins from Bible Project – Providing Value in Digital Media

This week on The Ministry Growth Show, we are talking with Jon Collins. Jon is the Co-Founder of Bible Project, one of the most well-known and established brands in the ministry sector. With over 2 million subscribers on YouTube and millions of views on the content they produce, Bible Project is having a significant impact […]

The post Jon Collins from Bible Project – Providing Value in Digital Media appeared first on Reliant Creative.

You're listening to the Ministry growth show brought to you by Reliant Creative, the creative agency for gospel centered ministries. Find out more at Reliant Creative dot org. Welcome to the Ministry Growth Show, a podcast dedicated to helping churches and ministries grow and make more effective impacts for the Kingdom of God in an ever changing digital world, whether you're building and growing a gospel center ministry or leading a church, if you want insight into the strategies, struggles, challenges and successes of other ministry leaders, you've come to the right place.

Welcome back to the ministry Growth show Today on the show. I'm going to be talking with john Collins. He's a co founder of bible project. John. Thanks for being on the show. Yeah, Thanks for having me.

Can you tell us a little bit about bible project? Maybe how you and tim met and then how you guys got started making animated videos? Sure, yeah, bible project is uh well, it started out as just a Youtube channel.

We would put up, we do put up on our Youtube channel short animated explainer videos that are, are walking through the bible, book by book, theme by theme, exploring the literary shape and design of the bible and how it's one unified story that lead to jesus.

And um the project has grown while we still really focus on these these explainer videos. We're doing a lot more stuff as well um with other resources starting film classes. But at its D. N. A. Is just this desire to two become lifelong meditators of scripture and really learn how this book works and um become bible nerds.

And uh we so tim and I we started this about six years ago, we tim and I met an undergrad at a bible school here in Portland Oregon where we're located and we both worked at a skateboard ministry. And how interesting, Yeah, became friends that way.

Also our wives, um our friends and so over the years we just stayed connected. Tim went on to just continue to study um just a true bible nerd, um getting his doctorate in biblical studies in Semitic languages.

I, I then went on and started to learn um animation and video production and was just kind of a freelancer. And then I started an explainer video shop where we started making all sorts of these short animations for companies and non profits and really learned this medium of using visuals and animation to make complicated ideas, uh, easier to understand and was really interested in in using that skill to talk and think about the bible.

So tim was moving back to Portland, He was doing school out and got his doctor out at Madison Wisconsin University of Madison Wisconsin and um, he's moving back and we just started thinking about this project, made a couple of pilot videos, put them up on Youtube with, with this vision of, hey, we got a whole library of these we want to make and we don't, we don't want to charge for them.

Um, we just, we just want to make them, wanna make them freely accessible and just kind of rode the wave of the crowdfunding model of being able to just ask people to become, you know, micro patrons and contribute so that we could have enough money to hire more designers to make more videos.

And it's been really successful and people have gotten behind it. And yeah, we've made a lot of cartoons on the internet about the bible. Now when you guys came together to start this, where you, um, were you yourselves doing the actual animation or were you still hiring some of that out? What did that look like? Um uh We we were we so when we started I um I did a little bit of the animation, our first our very first video I animated.

Um But that's the only designer animation I've touched since then. My skills and artists are pretty limited and uh we uh we hire we hire designers, animators, illustrators, we've got a really amazing team of designers that work on everything.

Um So yeah, right out the Gates, that's what I knew I wanted to do. That's how I did explainer videos previously. I I knew enough to be able to do on myself if I had to, but it just would be really uh not as good as I wanted to be and there's people way more talented at me then moving moving key frames around and drawing really beautiful art.

And um and so tim and I write and direct and um you kind of see, we have credit slides on most videos, you can kind of see all the artists involved. That's really cool. So kind of realizing the limitations of your strengths and skills and and outsourcing to people who are more talented than you in those spaces? Yeah, absolutely.

Now, as you guys continue to grow, uh, What are because, I mean, what, how many years did you start this? 7, 8 years ago? Well, it was 2014, so it's been about six years. Okay. Um, and now, what over two million subscribers on Youtube.

So as you guys continue to grow, what are you, what are you most excited about looking towards the future for bible project maybe in the next 2-3 years? You mentioned that you're doing some online courses.

That's that's pretty cool. I'd love to hear some more about that. What are you most excited about? Well, you know, when we started this, I really thought it would be just a side job and I really just a side hobby.

I just love, I I love doing this kind of work, I love trying to understand things that are important, I love then trying to communicate those things, distill them down. Um and as a follower of jesus and someone who grew up in the church being told, you know, this book is really, really important, wanting to just diving deep and understand it.

Um We thought that we would do it on the side and we would just hire freelancers as we had enough money, and we had about 100 and maybe 20 videos, 120 videos that we outlined. Well, tim really brought this, like, master list of videos, like, here's the videos I want to do.

Most of those were just an overview of a book of the bible, but then there was like 25 or so, what tim calls theme videos, which is taking a biblical motif, a design pattern and tracing that through the whole narrative and seeing how it really brings the whole thing together.

Um and it always has its climax and jesus, and it's it's resolution and new creation. So we had that list of videos, and really, initially the project was, let's just get those videos done and um we were turning a corner and as an organization to we're no longer just a project.

Um it's turned into a thing that it's going to continue on. Uh that list of videos continues to grow, but also just the opportunities uh that we have beyond just making videos continues to grow. Um We are filming classes now, uh it's classroom dot bible um where we bring in a handful of students tim teaches for three days through um right now he's teaching through genesis and it's all filmed really high quality, a lot interactive questions, It's it's seminary level content, it's free and I'm really proud of the platform, it's really cool.

Um there's only one class up right now, as of what, this is june mid june, there's gonna be a second class up in a couple of weeks. Uh so there's an intruder, hebrew bible class, it's about, oh boy, It's about 14 hours of content, but um with all the other stuff, you really, it's probably about 30 hours of commitment.

Um and uh we um we're becoming more of a technology company, you know, we we were just an animation studio, but now we um with this learning management system that we built for classroom dot bible, um and also an app that we're gonna be developing.

Um we're shifting gears into becoming uh an educational technology company and not just uh animation studio that wants to finish um a series of videos. So all that's really exciting, the vision or the mission has remained the same.

We want to we want people to experience the bible as a unified story that leads to jesus and to see it as literary art, beautiful, super sophisticated, well designed literature, ancient jewish literature, um that as people of faith, we also have a strong conviction and belief that is is God breathed and um and that, bye bye, appreciating it in that way.

It just comes to life in in in new ways. And so that's really stays the center, but our vision keeps growing with the amount of impact we're seeing, it's having. So with the classroom dot bible pursuit, does that become then its own entity that sits under bible project? And like you're that that's free contents.

Are you going like the online university going for accreditation, type type direction with that? Uh No, we're not going to go that route. We won't pursue accreditation. We um and we we will partner with accredited organizations that want to use the content and kind of put it into their um into their curriculum.

But uh it's really, we want to ah we want to create an opportunity for people who don't have access to seminary, whether it's the time or money. Um They just they can't swing it. Uh We we want to provide an alternative that would allow them to really go deep get seminary level instruction.

It's built for teachers, but you don't have to be a teacher to hang. Um it's just it goes in deep and um uh tim you know, kind of the story behind it is that Tim teaches adjunct at a seminary here in Portland, and um he, You know, he only gets to teach 15, 20 people at a time.

It's it's it's people who can't afford it. Um and and then, you know, you spend that three or four days with that group and then it's done. And what we've found is so cool about our videos is that once we make it it just ends up having such a long life and can be viewed hundreds of thousands of times millions of times and continue to have impact.

So we really love this opportunity to um to have to leverage digital technology that way. Um And so so we just started dreaming together what if we had you teach and we brought students in and we filmed it.

And uh so tim still teaches adjunct, but um we're uh we're also making these classes That's cool. Now of the 125 ideas that he originally brought. Have you guys hit all of those ideas and now you've started to expand beyond those? Or are there still some left from that original list that you you wanted to execute on? Yeah, there's still some left.

We so About 70 of those were books of the Bible, I mean 66 books of the Bible, but we split up some of the larger books into two videos. Um And then the remaining videos were mostly what we call our theme videos, and we haven't finished all of those were probably 3/4 the way through the list of theme videos.

The videos are the hardest for us to write. We also usually put our most design muscle behind them, and so we only do a couple a year. Um but there's been all sorts of other things that have spun up. We we do um, word study videos now, which wasn't on the original list, so we take a hebrew word or a greek word and we look at how that word is used throughout the story of the bible, and actually just kind of use that word as a way to go through the whole story of the bible.

And um those are really cool videos. We did a whole series that we just finished on how to read the bible. Um like a hermeneutics kind of class. It's 19 videos, looking at the different literary genres in the Bible and the different uh sections of the bible and how they work and skills to read them.

Well, we're starting a whole new series. Um actually, we're releasing the very first video in this new series. Um we're calling it, actually don't really know what to call it yet. You just wanna internally um the visual bible commentary.

Um and it's basically going uh taking smaller literary units, whether that's a chapter of a book, um or even just a paragraph, and then just kind of getting more into the weeds and reading the text and doing doing kind of commentary work, but doing it visually.

And So that could be a massive series because 1000 chapters in the Bible. And um let's see, what am I missing? There's a there's a there's other videos were making, so that library keeps growing and and every time I think there's gonna be some closure to it.

We always come up with. Of course, now we didn't discuss this offline at all, but I'm really interested to hear how you guys think through and deal with, like, really controversial topics. Uh I was watching a podcast that you and tim were doing, I think one of the recent ones on the apocalypse literature, and he had he had brought up a diagram and shown kind of where all the different viewpoints are, and you know, this is this is within with falling within scripture, you can kind of land on any of these points and be okay, like there's so much, there's so much division and and controversy over a lot of things in scripture.

How do you guys navigate that when you're teaching through the bible? Yeah, so, I mean, my main concern when I started this project, and I kind I wanted to do this before um before recruiting tim into it.

Um but my main concern was if I make bible videos on the internet, I'm just going to get hammered Exactly, and um, and probably often for good reason because, you know, I'm not a biblical scholar and um, and there's there are clear theological boundary lines that people protect and um, some sometimes it gets ugly and um, so I was really expecting that that would be something that would, we would constantly have to deal with.

But surprisingly hasn't been much of an issue for us at all. And one reason is because when we look at these themes, I mean, we're talking really, really basic um motifs and ideas that that, that cross traditional lines.

And then we stopped short of saying, um uh well we stopped short of then how any specific tradition then applies or puts on top of that, there there specific um theology or putting a stick in the ground for like you guys personally, this is where we would stand or something like that.

Yeah. And so what tim will do sometimes, and um you mentioned it with these these different perspectives on how to read the revelation, which is what you're referring to, that. He kind of showed a chart of here's here's like a matrix of ways that you can read, read the Book of Revelation.

And um he'll tell you where he lands, but but he'll tell you kind of the scope of, of um, where larger kristen dumb. I'm sorry, you can't hear that probably, but I'm getting a facetime call. Um, he'll give you a sense of where the larger landscape, uh, and we really want to stay, we just want to Orthodox, but also be ecumenical.

And so that if you're protestant or catholic or Eastern Orthodox, um that you will be able to rally behind this content, um we that doesn't mean we've stayed out of trouble completely in every arena, but for the most part it's been it's been pretty smooth sailing.

So surprisingly, so surprisingly, tim is really good at um channeling like kind of like embodying like a different mindset of like, okay, how would my Lutheran friends think about this, or how would my catholic friends be thinking about this? And then for us to be just really respectful that we don't step on certain toes, and we allow um we allow for all of those people to watch the video and be like, oh, that's awesome, that's great.

And then that that's why we then also and then fill in the blanks based on your tradition. Mhm. Well you guys have done a really good job of that, just the presentation is so gracious and gentle. Um I think that's a big reason why um you haven't run into a lot of those controversies, maybe because the way you guys present and the demeanor that you approach it is so gracious, so kudos to you for that.

Oh, thanks. Yeah. Now, shifting a little bit bible project has one of the most significant followings on Youtube in the ministry sector. And so, as I mentioned earlier, like, at over two million subscribers.

Now, you know, with millions of views across all of your content, can you share your thoughts on creating content where audience attention is right now? Like what can the ministry, space, Church and Parish Church learn from the success you guys have seen uh in creating content where audience attention is? Mm Yeah, we, you know, the internet is an attention economy, right? It's everyone screaming for your attention.

And um I I came from a traditional marketing background where you're trying to figure out how to convince people to pay attention to your thing. Uh And I actually just found that trying to kind of like trick people into paying attention to you through gimmicks or just um or just being loud or being audacious.

It's just not, it's not my thing. I just don't find a lot of enjoyment trying to crack that code. What what I really love is um is just focusing on creating value and the way I can I am built to create value is by distilling big ideas and making them accessible and what people, people want to understand the world.

People want to understand scripture, they want to understand all sorts of things. And people aren't dumb. We're all really intelligent, we just don't have the time to sift through all these complicated issues.

And so people find it really valuable when someone does that sifting for you and then is able to then present you with these ideas in a way that accessible, um you mentioned our tone or tone is not like you ought to believe this or I'm trying to convince you of this, it's just more like, man, I really want you to understand this, this is really worth understanding.

Um and um and I found that people want that kind of content and then they love to share that kind of content. It's content that helps you have these paradigm shifts and those are really lovely moments where it's like, well I didn't understand that and now I do and now I see the world a little bit differently and I can't unsee it, and those are just those are powerful moments that we cherish and and and like to share, and so people give their attention to those kind of things.

Um we found that Youtube is a great platform for that and I mean people, there's, I I can't remember the, the number, but there's just millions of minutes of video added to Youtube every day, I mean every day, so there's all sorts of stuff and um you know, I just tell people focus on creating value, creating something that someone will go, this is, I'm so glad that this exists, it just brought a lot of value for me and and the quality of what you guys are doing that is so high as well.

I think that that plays a part of it, but I mean, what it sounds like you're saying is specifically for you as someone realizing that hey, I can I have this gift ah instilled in me by my creator, to be able to take a complicated idea and distill it down so that anybody can understand it.

I'm gonna I'm gonna offer that skill up in that that gift to provide value to others, and I'm gonna be who, like, I'm going to live within my identity and and live within the gifts and talents that I've been given, and then we'll see where it goes, right, is my hearing that correctly? Yeah, So, I don't know, I think that there's just something that a lot of ministries can learn.

Uh big c church, local churches, para church space can learn from that. Like, there's we're all have some value that we can provide. There's intrinsic value in sharing stories of how God transformed people's lives.

And if we're able to do that in a digital space, I think there's a lot of success that can be had for ultimately the kingdom. Yeah, go ahead. Well, I don't add that. Um I think that it's what I've often find is if someone really wants to build an audience or um kind of success in some sort of platform is that there's a sense of if I just have the right people championing my stuff um and get the right kind of exposure, um if I just basically, if I cracked the code on marketing, then um then I'll find success.

And that is true, like when people, you know, the right people share your stuff, that's huge, but I think that by putting so much focus on that, we're not then giving the proper energy to just creating something that actually has value.

And so I just, I think it's asking yourself, what do I wish exists, Like what is something that doesn't exist right now, But man, if it did, I would just I would eat it up. I would love it. It would bring value to me.

That's a really good place to start, because then likely it will bring value to others and then actually learned this from a guy named kevin Kelly. Um he said that, you know, our instinct is then to kind of try to hold those ideas tightly because we don't want someone else to steal that idea and run with it and have success.

But but kevin taught me that you should have the opposite approach, You should actually be trying to give all your ideas away. So when you have an idea of, oh, this would be a lot of this would create a lot of value.

If someone did video like this, or someone made this kind of content, like go out and just tell people about it and be like, man who do you know, who should be doing this? Should you be doing this or someone else? We're doing this and just like kind of give these opportunities away and um, the the the the ideas that no one ends up running with, but that you can't shake right, like no one else is doing it, but you just you still wake up in the morning thinking about it.

Those are the things that you need to you are specifically created to do. Um, and, and then, and then do those things. That's really good. I think that there's there's so much manipulation and traditional marketing and especially in the ministry space, that I don't I just don't think that that can uh, in the long term is going to be successful at what Simon Sinek says we should be inspiring rather than manipulating in our, in our communications, so that's really good, so I mean let's shift a little bit, but how do you guys, how do you guys view discipleship in the digital space? Like so much of discipleship is um face to face, we've seen through Covid, that there's an incredible opportunity to engage with people who don't know christ in digital space, you guys have been doing that for a long time, 67 years from your perspective, being successful in digital, what can, what can the church learn from Covid and what we experienced in the last couple of months, and how can she me and engage with people where their attention is in order to um in order to share the love of christ, like what have you guys seen over the last handful of years doing this, maybe not necessarily as a discipleship focus organization, but um just in what you've learned, being so successful in digital Yeah, well, like I can ask you when, when you think about discipleship, what what does that term mean for you? Um walking with another individual in there, the growth and development of the relationship with christ, whether that's, you know, from not a conversion based model where there has to be conversion at the beginning, but like conversion at any point can can happen, but like walking with an individual in a relationship, showing and guiding what it looks like to follow christ and then ultimately leading to making disciples themselves.

Yeah, well we're really careful to not become or compete with the church, like the church is the church and we are not trying to be a digital church um and and that kind of discipleship, that kind of um how you're describing it is very relational and we just don't have that kind of relationship with our audience, like we don't, I mean we, we hear from them um and we hear stories from them, but we don't, you know, we're not living life with them and we, and we don't have that insight into how to um how to help someone align their life closer to the ways of jesus, um but what you know, our our mission is, is to help people understand the bible, and the the our conviction is that um becoming a bible nerd as kind of a phrase we use, but being like a lifelong meditator, scripture psalm, one blessed is the man who meditates on scripture day and night, he's like a tree planted by streams of water, There's just this um this practice of not reading the bible to check something off the list, not reading the bible to um uh try to become an expert of theologian, um but to, to read the bible because it is divine literary art that shapes your heart and your soul and as you meditate on it and as these themes and ideas resonate with you and as God's spirit, you know, use that, is that in you, like you will get shaped two become kind of kind of person that God desires us to be his, his image bears who um reflect who he is in creation and um and so our goal is to make that journey more accessible um by providing tools to kind of give you frameworks, so you don't get lost, I mean this is ancient literature that is, is not always so intuitive to read um and so you know, that's our contribution to discipleship, um we love to connect people with their local churches though when they reach out, and they're like, hey, because we do hear stories all the time of, I started following jesus, I became a christian after watching some of your videos and um and we love to connect them with, with the body of christ in their, in their city and yeah, that's great, so I mean your audience is, I don't know what your audience looks like, but it's got to be incredibly global, and so being a Portland Oregon based organization and having, you know, an audience that is coming to, you may be making decisions for christ based on the content that they've seen, being able to point them to a local body that's really beautiful.

Um so are there like systems and strategies that you guys have in place to be able to come alongside those individuals that have come to you and be able to say, hey, here's a, here's a local body of believers that you might want to plug into.

Uh yeah, you know, I'm not, I'm not sure exactly what our protocol is with our, it's our audience engagement team now, we get lots of emails every day, I mean it's it's become a big part of, I mean a couple people's jobs just responding to emails and uh I'd have to, I'd have to connect with them to kind of see what the current state is, but I think the strategy just is as simple as, you know, when someone reaches out, we respond and connect over email as much as you can connect over email.

If people ask for prayer requests, we um we carve out time to pray for for for people, um and if people are asking for more resources, we we pointed in the right direction and when people are looking for um discipleship, um mentorship, uh community, then we um uh we point them to churches in their city, um I'm not sure exactly like if we have a roller dex um or kind of what their strategy is for funding for finding those, um but yeah, that's really cool.

What uh what maybe insights can you share around back to the marketing discussion that we've talked about and touched on a little bit um that have, have provided you guys success. Again, one of the most recognize brands in the ministry sector.

What can other ministries learn from your guys success? Is it for you? Just been what we posted content that had value on Youtube and it just kind of went crazy like wildfire. Has there been strategies behind how you've gotten that content out to a wider audience? Yeah, my core strategy has been for about project and even before about our project was is um create something that's valuable and then it will market itself and that's not always true, but man it's it's often true, it's often the case like if you you create something that really has value, people share it and that's just the beauty of the internet right? Like and then it will um it will do its own marketing work.

And um so then the question becomes how do you create something that really has value? And then that's that's trick, that's the craft, that's the thing that um as creators or artists or communicators we obsess about and think about and develop those skills.

Um And uh we uh we don't spend money on marketing like bio project. We've um we don't, I mean I think we've spent maybe 100 bucks here, 100 bucks there on like facebook boosts. Um I don't think we even do that anymore.

I don't know if that's still a thing, but like um but you know our biggest um marketing engine is Youtube itself, Youtube suggests our videos and they do a number of ways. They do it when you finish the video and you're on Youtube and they're like, oh you might also like this and it's one of our videos, they do it in um the browse feature um and half of our views come from Youtube sending someone to our content, so Youtube is our marketing engine and and obviously there's more than that to now.

Um Search engine optimization works the same way. There's all sorts of ways to kind of kind of hack into it and try to figure out how do you get more google juice so that, you know, when someone searches a term you show up on the first page and there's all sorts of tricks, tips and tricks.

But really the number one thing is to create something that people start linking to and sharing because that's what google wants to see. They want to see that this thing really has value and then when people interact with it, they like it.

And um so now a ton of our traffic comes from the fact that if you search certain terms, we show up first on google and and we, you can then go back and reinforce that with really good marketing and kind of supercharge it and we'll get to a stage where we'll probably do that.

But I think it should be the the first strategy for strategy really is great value. So you guys aren't even doing like pre roll ads on Youtube before playing. You add in a similar piece of content before that video starts.

Yeah, we haven't, we, we actually just made our first kind of 32nd ad that um, I believe we are starting to spend a little bit money testing it as a pre roll. Um, and for certain demographics, people on Youtube to introduce them to a channel.

Um, I am, I'm not sure how that's going. I could, I could circle back with you and um, get some more stats. But um, we, uh, you know, Youtube is a little bit frustrating in that if you do pre roll ads for your own content really, Youtube will just put on there.

I mean they'll let you limit it, I think. But really it's like whoever wants to pay to play an ad, I would, I would love it. If anyone from Youtube is listening to this, I would, I would love the ability to and I would, I would pay Youtube money to play my own add on my own videos.

We don't like, we don't play at other people's ads on our videos. But if if we could put pre roll on our own videos to kind of cross promote other things we're doing that would be awesome. But there isn't, isn't that feature? Um, so it seems like an obvious feature.

Yeah. Wouldn't that be a cool feature? Yeah, I wonder why they don't. That's really cool though. Yeah. Just everything coming back to how do we provide the most value and create quality content around that value and then put it out there because that's the type of content that's going to get shared and promoted and pushed.

Yeah. As much as like you can try to learn these algorithms. Youtube has an algorithm, google has an algorithm, facebook has um and you can kind of try to figure them out and optimize your concept for him.

What are the kind of thumbnails that people click on more than others where the titles, what are the key words you put in the description in the metadata and this and that and that's, you know, it's good to know those things but that's really shouldn't be your primary focus.

The primary focus. If that becomes a primary focus then um you're gonna be constantly just fighting against um you know, millions of minutes of content people doing the exact same thing um and oftentimes that just drives people down into this kind of everyone starts making and looking the same.

Um and um constantly chasing this unobtainable thing because it's gonna constantly be uh constantly be changing like facebook and google and all those guys, they don't want you to figure that out. They don't know exactly what they don't want you to, they want you to focus on creating something valuable and they're creating algorithms that are trying to sniff out what really has value.

And so the best thing you can do is just create value. Yeah. Now obviously artistic expression is really crucial to your guys ministry work. And obviously um there's a high value placed on beautiful creative expression with everything that you guys do.

Like the I mean the stuff that you guys are putting out is beautiful. Uh can you can you walk us through your mindset in regard to creative expression? Like what do you think the importance is in creativity within within the church? And how maybe can the bride use creative expression for God's glory and greater kingdom impact like as beings created in the image of a creative creative God.

What does, what does that mindset kind of look like for you guys? Yeah. Um you just mentioned were created in the image of of a creative creator god. And I mean that's, yeah, you gotta start there. Um I also love that.

You know, the very first person in the bible who's filled with God's spirit is uh his name's Betsy Allele in um an exodus and he's commissioned as an artist, craftsman and artisan to build the Tabernacle.

Um, so he, he, the very first person filled God's spirit and the narrative, the bible is um an artist. And the purpose of all the artistry in the Tabernacle was to remind you of uh who God is and the purpose of God and humanity um, to, to remind you that God placed us in this beautiful garden, you know, genesis to um in which we're in God's presence and there's an abundance and it's good and we're there to work and take care of it.

And so all the are all of the artisanal details of the Tabernacle are helping, like, ignite your imagination to go back there. Um, and then also they, they give you the proper framework to kind of understand the nature of God and his holiness and um, uh, and other attributes.

And so, you know, art, it does that, it's, it unleashes our emotions and our imagination and, and, and as being created in God's image and God being a, a creative being, that's just such a, such an essential tool that we have, and ultimately, you know, the um, the gospel is spread through communication right? Like that.

The good news of God's kingdom um come through and fulfilled in jesus. It's something that we have to go and tell. Um and, and then experience and that happens through um happens through well crafted sermons.

It happens through song happens through all sorts of other um creative expressions and um it's just, it's just essential. I mean, the bible itself is literary art and it's and it's designed to evoke the imagination and our emotions and to align that with what's true and, and so yeah, I mean, we just have such a rich heritage and that if anyone on the planet should care the most about art and beauty, it should be christians and actually, traditionally it has been, it's kind of been this, you know, I think we live in this, this kind of weird moment in human history.

I hope it's a weird moment where, you know, we'll look back and we'll go remember that time in like the late 20th, 21st century where, like, christians weren't the ones who were pushing arts about that.

Yeah. Yeah, like it used to be that, you know, christians, people of faith. I mean if you just I mean, just look at the look at the bible itself, it's this it's a it's an amazing piece of literary craftsmanship done by people of faith and um and its legacy as just as literature, it stands above, like any other piece of literature.

I mean I'm biased but I mean it's just it's so sophisticated and beautiful and uh and so christians have constantly been pushing um communication technology as well as art um throughout human history.

And I think that, you know, in the last few decades at least my experience and that's all I've been alive for is um is that we just are behind the curve and we're just like trying our best but don't something's missing.

Like we've, we've we've we've we're kind of playing on the B team a little bit and I think that this will be just a, hopefully a blink in our human history. I don't know my world history all that well, but, and I he even could have this time period wrong, but like you coming out of what renaissance where there was this major, major focus within the church on art, uh that may be, there's a push back in the last couple generations to take things so far that like it becomes, uh, I don't know, maybe that period we looked at that period as like this, hey, we took that a little bit too far, invested, maybe a little bit too many funds in that approach and so have gone the other direction and now don't, you know, I think it's getting better, like within you and I, as generation, we're starting to see a greater interest in a greater focus on those things.

But, um, I just wonder if if it was just like a, in the last 100 or so years of pushback against, hey, let's not do that again. Let's not take it too far and like completely ignore, uh, every other ministries, pursuit in the Pursuit of Great Art.

Um, I don't, you know, again, not knowing world history all that well, but I wonder if that isn't a piece to that. Yeah, I mean art is, um, good communication and good art is, it's hard and it's expensive and, um, and then the impact it has is not, um, so easily, um, uh, observable or immediately quantifiable.

It's a slow burn. It's a, it's a slow shape. It's a slow shaping of our hearts and imaginations. And um, there has been at least in the tradition I grew up in, there has been this sense of man, we, we also just need, we need to convert people and we need to just move the needle and um, and so let's not get distracted by just trying to make good art when, when the slow burn, we don't have time for that.

Yeah, Yeah. Um and so I think there's that tension interesting. Yeah, I think I'm excited to see the direction the church is moving. I mean, the stuff that you organizations like you guys are putting out the content you're putting out, there's, there's a lot of good art being done within the church and ministry space and a lot of great storytelling.

And um, I'm excited to see in the next couple of generations where the church goes, um, being led by by you and tim and organizations like here. So um john this has been, this has been really great. I don't want to take too much of your time and I wanna be respectful of, of what you've got going on.

But thank you so much for, for being on the show. I loved our conversation and excited to share this with everybody. Um, can I pray for for you and bible project? Yeah, absolutely. Father, I just lift up bible project.

I lift up john and tim and the leadership of the organization. I pray that you would guide and lead them as they continued to be faithful with the gifts, talents and abilities you've given them, Father.

I pray that the work that they're doing, it would continue to have impact for your kingdom, that lives would continue to be changed father, thank you um for uh what you've done through bible project in my own life and so many people that I know who have been touched by the content that they're creating and just the ability with these guys to take complicated um ideas and themes within scripture and boil, boil them down and distill them down into easily understandable pieces of content.

Lord, It's just such a gift that you've given these guys and I thank you that they have been faithful to, to use them for your glory Lord, I pray that you would just bless and grow this organization and continue to do what you're doing through them.

Um, and uh pray for tim and john is as they lead and guide and to seek your direction for the vision and future of this organization. We love you so much, thank you that we get to be a part of what you're doing in jesus name Amen.

And then john, I don't know if I need to say it, but if people want to get a hold of you or learn more about bible project, how can they do so yeah, bible project dot com is a great place to go. If you're just, if you're Youtuber and you like that platform, everything, all the videos you make on Youtube dot com slash the bible project I have, I'm kind of most active on twitter um and by active at ebbs and flows, but you can find me on twitter at um, J O N P D X and yeah, perfect.

So you weren't able to get rid of the, when you? Re branded or to remove the, on your issue? Yeah, I don't think we does someone have youtube dot com slash private projects. Maybe someone took it from you, waiting for you there.

They're waiting for you to reach out and uh, for somebody. Well john this has been awesome. Thank you so much for being on the show. We really appreciate it. Absolutely. Thanks for having. Bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of the ministry Growth show.

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