Phillip Holmes from Highest Good Media - Ministry Marketing & Funnel Development

Phillip Holmes from Highest Good Media - Ministry Marketing & Funnel Development

The Ministry Growth Show

December 7, 2020

Episode Notes:

This week on The Ministry Growth Show we talk with Phillip Holmes, VP of Institutional Communications at Reformed Theological Seminary and Founder of Highest Good Media. Phillip shares his experience and expertise in marketing and in this episode we discuss marketing funnels and the fear of marketing in the ministry sector. Enjoy!

Episode Transcript:

You're listening to the Ministry growth show brought to you by Reliant Creative, the Creative Agency for gospel centered ministries. Find out more at Reliant Creative dot org. Welcome to the Ministry Growth Show, a podcast dedicated to helping churches and ministries grow and make more effective impacts for the Kingdom of God in an ever changing digital world, whether you're building and growing a gospel center ministry or leading a church, if you want insight into the strategies, struggles, challenges and successes of other ministry leaders, you've come to the right place.

Welcome back to the Ministry Growth Show Today on the show, I'm going to be talking with Philip Holmes. He is the founder of Highest good Media and the VP of institutional communications that reformed Theological Seminary Philip.

Thanks for being on the show. Hey, thanks for having me zack. Glad to be here. Yeah, I'm excited to have you on. Um can you share with our audience a little bit about your background and past experience, how you got to where you're at today? Sure.

I'll try my best to give you the short version of it. Um So I am going to start from where I'm from because I love being from Pickens Mississippi. Um it's a small town of less than 1000, uh about 45 minutes north of Jackson, um Mississippi, which is of course the state capital.

And uh yeah, I grew up, I grew up in Pickens, um played basketball all of my life, grew up in the church, actually started fun fact or interesting fact, I started preaching Um when I was 11 years old uh and I was licensed in the National Baptist Convention at the age of 12.

Now that is not a, as as we would say in my circles, uh that is not prescriptive, uh that's simply descriptive of, of of my journey. Um but I had, I had a, I grew up in the family that uh that love jesus and was very serious about our faith, especially my grandmother Um who's still alive, she's actually 91 uh 91 this year, I should turn anyone in july and um my grandmother disciple me as a, as a child um and and so yeah, so growing up, I don't know even when I was preaching, I don't know if I had a good grasp on the bible, um but the Lord in his providence man just kind of put certain things in my pathway.

So the first commentary that someone bought for me, it was a Matthew Henry commentary. Now I didn't realize how important uh Matthew Henry would be to me later on um as I grew up, but it was very um encouraging to look back and think man, nobody in my circles had any idea who Matthew Henry was, but I was using him for sermon prep.

Um, fast forward, um, played high school ball, so basketball was a huge part of my life growing up, um, played basketball in college, ended up at a christian liberal arts university and um, in Jackson Mississippi called Belhaven.

Um, I was there with the intention of majoring in communications, um, but decided that perhaps the Lord was calling me full time to ministry, pastoral ministry. So I switched my major uh, to Biblical studies.

I also didn't like my introductory communications class. Um, it's just something about communications wasn't really vibing was me and of course I just, I thought that communications was where I was supposed to go because you know, I've been preaching, I've been public speaking my my entire life, so, um, switch to Biblical studies, thought that I was going in the pastoral ministry about the Lord had different plans.

Um And in 2011, um as I was in my first semester of seminary, um I co founded the Reform African American Network, which is now The Witness alongside john Martyn's B and a lot of people. Um Jamaar is kind of uh well known way more well known than he was at the time.

He wrote the color of compromise. So a lot of people knowing from that, um I stayed with that ministry until 2000 and 14 and that was actually doing kind of operation. So that included uh marketing, uh staff management and stuff like that.

I kind of did a lot of the administrative stuff while I was there and that's when I really discovered my love for marketing, my interest uh in marketing and it was from there. Uh I began to kind of think what what does the next phase of life after I leave? Um after I left ran in 2014, like what is this next phase of life is gonna look like? So I just got married.

Um I started calling and making a few contacts and um the team at desiring God, um it's a long story short, offered me a job. Um So I worked for Desiring God for a year as a content strategist, which included, you know, social media, um writing.

Um I think I did about 211 blog a week or 22 blocks a week or something like that. Um So I really enjoyed that um um season for the most part, but it was also really hard on me personally and on my family being away from where I grew up and also being in Minneapolis, because it's super cold up there.

So uh yeah, man, so we we essentially found made our way back to Mississippi with our newborn who had just been born that summer. Um and I uh got into a job with the financial industry as a creative director.

Um and then after that, um I ended up come into our T. S in 2000 and 17, that's where I've been ever since. And uh just to kind of weave highest good in in 2000 In 18. Uh several months after I got the job at RTs, I I really wanted to um expose myself to uh diverse ministries, I guess in diverse industries when it came to marketing because Harriet is kind of its own beast and it's really difficult to market in.

Um but I wanted to also kind of keep myself sharp and engage other uh industries as well. So I decided to start Highest Good, um, in order to not just deal in higher air, but also work with potentially nonprofits, also work with individuals as I had time in order to bring in extra income.

And this kind of was the original purpose of playing for high as good at the time. Yeah. Okay. I wanted to play around in some other aspects of the ministry space with higher, correct, correct gotcha.

And what have you been doing lately with Reformed Theological Seminary or RTs as well? Maybe refer to it from now on and, and, uh, share what you're most excited about with what you guys are doing there, man.

We've, the Lord has really been like gracious and kind to, um, me since I've been the RTs, so we've, we've had a lot of success. Um, in the last, I guess, three years at this point. um you know, when I came there are t s had a my predecessor was a communications um person, I think he was the Ceo but uh we really didn't have uh communications office.

And what I mean by that is um he held the title but and and probably did some of the work, but we didn't he didn't have a team. Um and we really have processes. Um So one of the things, so so essentially, you know, my task when I first came in was to basically have to start from scratch.

I didn't inherit systems or processes or anything like that, also didn't inherit the team. Um So I was sort of the for the first year I was alone uh Communications Director. And then I had like a part time intern.

Um And you know, over the last three years, that team has grown to uh four full time people. Uh And um in that same intern is still with me, he's actually my part time social media manager right now. Um He's he's grown so much in that role, but yeah, so, you know, We were looking at some of the stats, you know, we've increased website traffic since we launched a new website um by 100% in the last um two years.

Um So that's been super encouraging. We significantly increased our leaves, we're focusing a whole lot on lead generation um and building funnels so that we can essentially take people from strangers to customers uh in the last year, in the last six months, rather we've seen some pretty significant successes as we've partnered with campuses in order to help them increase um um Credit hours.

So we most most people refer to there. You know, how well they're they're doing, they say, well we had these many students, uh, this year, uh new students. Well RTs we focus on credit ours, uh, more than anything else.

So we had uh, we had one program that was really hurting over the last few years. I hadn't been able to pick up any steam, but it was a really good product. The guys in Orlando had done a great job putting together sort of this complex hybrid mdf program.

Um, but they realized that nobody knew about it. Um, so, you know, I had a new team that didn't have any marketing experience whatsoever when I recruited him. Uh, and I probably wouldn't do this again, but I basically baptize them uh with a fire hydrant, and just told the campuses that I said, hey, you guys come to us with a problem and and we'll see if we can help you solve it.

So one of the problems that was brought to us was this hybrid in their program. And um, they said, hey, we feel like there's not a whole lot of awareness. So we built them a full funnel, Uh, and increase their correct hours by over 200%.

Um, so, uh, and, and they had actually recruited more, They had more new credit hours this incoming year than they had, um, since the program that started. That's incredible. Those are some crazy results.

Yeah. We, we were, we were, we needed to win, my team was young, but they were, um, they committed, they love their job. None of them ever thought they'd be working in marketing and communications, but because of budget, um, constraints, yeah, budget restraints, uh, budget limitations.

I, um, there we go. Just find a new word. Um, I had to, I had to hire people who I knew were capable, um even if they didn't have the knowledge of experience. And so we invested a whole lot and resources and training um in order to get them to where they needed to be.

And uh this was up one that we ran this spring and it was right when we're hitting our stride, so uh I was really proud of them. Um and yeah, it's been fun. So we've had some other things that happened since then, we just launched a certificate program uh that did really well out of the gate because some of the promotion that we put behind it.

Um So yeah, that's that's in a nutshell, what's been going on in our t s. We have there's a lot more, but um we have more important things to talk about. Yeah, no, that's that's really that's really good.

Can you just quickly maybe for our audience, Walk us through what a ah maybe one of your funnels looks like just in the structure of of from start to finish. What would that look like a process of taking someone who's a new lead all the way down to getting them plugged into this, say this MDVIP program.

Sure. So so for us this is this is a two full partnership because I want to make sure I acknowledge this. Um uh you know, when I after my first year RTs um our um enrollment um director passed away suddenly of a heart attack.

Um And yeah, it was, it was tragic. He was a really nice guy. Um So you know, RTs was kind of scrambling, trying to figure out what we're gonna do for our next guy because RTs is a complex, I mean, complex institution.

We have 99 campuses at the time. Uh and we were trying to figure out, you know, my point to them was hey, if we bring somebody new and he doesn't know our system is going to take them a long time to get acclimated because you may be able to run the enrollment at, you know, covenant or Westminster or Gordon Conwell.

Um but RTs is a different beast just because it has so many moving parts. So one of the things I I encouraged, I was like the guy that you get has to be willing to collaborate with marketing, uh sales in in our case enrollment and marketing go hand in hand.

Um and if you don't have those two engines working uh in coordination with with each other, uh there's going to be a gap in the customer experience uh and that gap is going to hurt conversions. Um, so, um, they, the guy that, that they hire it was the guy that I was, I was recommending, Um, David camping him and I've been able to work really well together.

So I only mentioned that as a caveat to say, uh, while marketing may be given a lot of input into the overall final enrollment plays a huge role because at the end of the day, I can't sell a, uh, $55,000 product online.

Right? People want to pick up the phone and talk to somebody. So the way the way that our phone those works is the first thing I want to do is, um, well, I'll start here. Let's define what the final is.

Um, uh, funnel is essentially a, um, a set of uh, sequential tactics and I'm doing this on top of my head, so correct me if you hear something that needs to be clarified, but there's a set of sequential tactics uh, that are put in place in order to take a individual from a stranger, uh, to a customer.

Um, and, and then one might say, and from a customer to a lifelong, uh, supporter or fan, right? Um, and and and one of the ways that I've been defined that lady at is is a set of sequential tactics that builds trust over time.

So, um, the first step that we would take when we're building the phone do is we want to figure out who it is that we're talking to. You have to start with the target audience. The customer declined. Uh, because if you try to do anything else before you have a clear understanding of who you're talking to, um, you're going to miss them completely.

Um, for instance, if I come on the show and did not do any type of research about your organization or your podcast. Um This could have potentially been in, you know, an awkward conversation. So you gotta you gotta do research, right? You gotta do research when you're doing it after you do research, didn't you start crafting messaging? Um after that, because again, you've got to know what you want, but now and now that, you know, the person that you're trying to target you are crafting your message around them so that you can make sure you're addressing their core concerns.

You're addressing their pain points uh as it relates to your product. Um And then that's kind of some of your Foundation work research and messaging once you have that in place. Um um the the way that you would build it next is you probably want to start at your core product.

Um and then from there you want to build a lead magnet uh that is um that is related to your core product. Um That is the next step that someone should take before they, you know, essentially um use your core product.

So for a seminarian student we're gonna we might do something, we've done products like five books to read before, you know, applying the seminary before going to seminary, right? Um Those, you know, so we'll get leg and Dunkin, who's our Chancellor uh to put together a reading list.

Uh he gets giddy over stuff like this, and um and and you know, and that converts really well. Um and then um after that we're gonna put together content that is um relationships stage appropriate. Uh in order to uh because some people, you know, you have cold audiences, cold audiences or what we consider, um individuals who don't know anything about, you don't even know you exist or if they're aware of you, it's only vaguely, and then you have warm audiences.

Those are the people who are following you on twitter and on facebook. Um, and, and they may even be on the email list, but maybe not. Um, so you want to target your lead magnet towards your warm audience, not your cold audience.

A lot of people try to give stuff away for free, but you know, to cold audience that's never heard of them unless it's really good and really rare. Everybody is offering free content nowadays. Uh everybody is offering free resources.

Uh and, and so the general population is kind of getting, you know aware of the fact that hey, if you want my email address, that means that she probably wants something else. So you have to make sure that when you craft that lead magnet, that's, there's true value there, like it's something that your target audience really needs, and then when you're crafting, um and, and then when, and then people that you're targeting, um that content to, you've already built at least a certain level of trust where they would know, hey, if I download this, I won't mind getting um emails from RTs because I, I like them.

Um and then in the way you do that is by getting content that is giving away content and give them an adding value that's completely accessible without any type of walls or barriers. So, you know, we may run uh, ads or something like that that are like a series of videos that they can just watch, or they may teach you something in like one minute.

Um and and of course, the way that we're crafting those videos as as much as we have time. Uh we're crafting those videos based on the messaging and the research that we have, because this is that first step, right? This is the first introduction.

Um so this is our first opportunity to build trust, and so we build it backwards because if you if you build it, um, starting at the at the top of the funnel, well, what will essentially happen is is that, um, you'll find yourself always playing catch up.

Um and oftentimes you'll realize that where you started is not necessarily um where you want it to end. So, for example, let's just say, all right, we're going to create nowhere in this video, but you haven't created your lead magnet yet.

And and for whatever reason your lead magnet gets delayed. Um The other reason to, and so now you just have a bunch of people watching your content, but they haven't taken any action. And then on the flip side of that, you haven't had an opportunity to test your lead magnet with your already warm audience has already subscribed.

That's a good way to test your lead magnet. If my lead magnet is good and I already have an audience, how about I make my current audience opt into it uh in order to get it if they are opting in like crazy, that means that if I can warm another audience up um who was previously unaware of me before I started this campaign, uh that shows me that this lead magnet is actually good, so it gives you an opportunity to learn before you um uh give it to a cold audience and I'll stop right there.

I guess that was that was probably longer than what you needed. No, that's, that's super helpful. And so at the end of the day, you're providing valuable content specifically tailored to that audience that you have done some research on and, and they're becoming aware of your organization based on this content that they saw as valuable.

And now they, that trust being built correct and the content has to be staged appropriate. Uh, that's, that's super important because you've got to think about the customer journey exactly within the, within the funnel, right? So you want to say, um, and it has to be risk appropriate as well.

So that's why for the top of the final content, we don't put up any walls like, hey, you got to give us your email address to get this. Um, but we also know that that allows us to create content that's valuable, but it doesn't have to be off the charts valuable, whereas with the lead magnet, the content needs to be really good.

Um And and we're and so good that they're willing to give us their email address, and once they opened, this is really important. Once they open the lead magnet to lead magnet has to deliver, because if it does not deliver, you've lost all their trust and their unsubscribing and they're not gonna want to hear from your hand.

Yeah. Yes, that's that's really helpful. I think that that will provide some value for ministries just to kind of wrap their heads around what that looks like. Um. Okay, cool. So now, historically ministries have kind of lagged behind the fourth profit world considerably when it comes to marketing.

What do you think? Um what do you guys see that it is that prevents ministries from investing in marketing? And this is more of a question related to what you guys are doing with highest good. I think probably more than R.

T. S. Yeah, I think that well, I think it it overlaps man. You know, I've been able to learn so much about the nonprofit mentality because of my role at RTs as well as and has been confirmed when I've seen the same things on both sides of my uh my job and my vocations and realizing that there is a common uh there's a pattern here.

And I think what it is is that often at least in my space, the individuals number one who end up in uh executive roles, um character is prioritized more than actual business experience and that's and that's and that's important.

And I think and then actually that's one of the reasons why I love to work with nonprofits, because you get to work with some of the best people, uh, in the world. Um, and the reason why that they don't have time to ever develop themselves as business leaders.

It's because often it is not prioritized to them, right. They're, they're starting from scratch. Uh, it's not emphasized as a requirement. Um, that's why I think that it's super important for nonprofits to have businessman business men and women on their boards, um, people who actually have, or at least a group of them.

Oftentimes we, we go after, uh, wealthy people, uh, to be on their boards because we want them to give, but I would take a working board that, that gives, you know, average, uh, to my nonprofit, uh, then a donor base board that gives a lot, but doesn't give a lot of mentorship and value doesn't really, um, they don't consider this as a part time job.

Um, and, and, and so what often happens is these, these individuals, men and women are oftentimes also stretched in as well. They don't have a lot of time, um, to learn new stuff and you got to prioritize also what you're going to learn.

So when you're in a small nonprofit. Um, and um, and you know, you, you know, you kind of have a part time bookkeeper and uh, and a part time, you know, social media person and then you got operations concerns.

There's just all these things that are coming at you. Um, and you never really have an opportunity to, to even discover the value Of marketing, especially digital marketing. So, uh, because right now, you know, I'm 33, most nonprofit executives probably tend to be in there at least late 30s or early to uh, Early 40s, late fit, early 40s, late 40s or something like that.

Um They are individuals who did not grow up in this particular social media, digital at age, so when they think about marketing is billboards, it's um it's google ass SCL is still big uh for this particular generation uh that that I'm referring to, but beyond that they don't know how inexpensive and cheap it is to advertise yourself on platforms like facebook and how effective it can be.

Uh You know, it's funny the social dilemma just came out and a lot of people have been talking about it and they were like, did you know how much, like how much information they have on us? And I was like, yeah, of course I do use it every day in order to uh target people that I'm looking for.

Um So it's all these data points and there are some concerns about that, about privacy. Um, and and and and a lot of the issues that social the social dilemma brings up. Um, but but at the same time, there's some there's a lot of good that the church and the ministries can do uh, with the information that we have at our disposal, and we can we can use it for good.

So go ahead. Yeah, well, and, and yeah, there's just like anything else. There's a good side and a bad side of things. How how we take something, how we take a tool of technology, uh, digital name, anything within digital, and how we use that is dependent on the human being using that piece, not necessarily the thing itself.

So absolutely incredible, incredible opportunities for the ministry space, the ministry sector to use these tools to much greater effectiveness in the work that they're doing for the ministries, the support and advocacy.

They can build the brand that they can build in these spaces. Um, I mean, we see it happening with commercial big businesses, apples and cokes and NFL and you name the big brands Tesla's of the world.

You know, there's people are essentially worshiping these organizations because they've created such strong brand loyalty and they're using these spaces that it's not outside of the realm for the ministry space to use it just as a matter of digging in doing some research and figuring out how it can be effective for your organization.

So, yeah, that's that's really helpful, I think. So, how would you, how would you prompt and encourage or or encourage ministry leaders to press in more heavily? Because I think what we see is that that ministry executives, ministry leaders look at what's going on in digital, It's crazy fast paced.

There's something new every day. It's hard to keep up with. How do they just press in, get started and maybe start small? Um, I would say start bye learning. Yeah, asking questions. I think that often we, when we, and even when we learned a little something we want to start doing because we feel like we've already wasted so much time.

Um, so you know, what ends up happening is, is that, um, they don't realize, you know, they may watch. So Donald Miller for example, um, has created a, uh, very successful business and because of his background as a christian author, um, a lot of christians that I know have been using his stuff, which I have also been using by the way.

Um, uh, it's benefited being greatly as I've learned. Um, so they'll, they'll watch and take advantage of the resources that he's putting out. Um But then and then they'll just go and start trying to like do stuff.

Uh And and they don't realize that as as good as his resources are. Um They quickly end up realizing that it's a lot more complicated uh than than that there's a lot of other moving pieces and I think that he gives you a really good foundation.

Um But but often uh there's just some things that you can't teach without having someone actually um uh mentor you. Uh And then also having the time to like yeah to walk you through it and also having the time to do trial in there.

Because guess what? Uh marketing is not a if I do this according to this formula, I'm going to get it right because people aren't like that your marketing to people. Um So uh you you have to be willing to test, you have to be willing to be patient.

Um And and and they're just so other fundamental things. So I would say uh learned enough to know that uh marketing is uh important and it should be prioritizing your organization, and then once you get to that point, find yourself a trustworthy strategist, and this is huge because a strategist, uh well sometimes now want to hire market any like we try that the next initial step that people try to do is they try to hire a social media manager, right? Or they try to hire a web design company, right? Um But if you're doing all of those things and you lack a strategy, um you're gonna be essentially doing random acts of marketing and and there and it's going to be um it's not going to be coordinated, it's not going to be comprehensive.

Um It is going to be reactive more than anything else, and in marketing shit drive actions, uh, that lead to results that lead to revenue. And if you're marketing isn't doing that, it's probably because you're just doing random stuff online.

So I would say for ministry leaders to take a deep breath first and foremost, and um and and and and learned a little bit, and then once they've learned enough to convince them that it can work, um look for a strategist to to kind of walk alongside you, uh to help you put put a plan in place before you start spending money and assuming that all these markets are just selling snake oil, because it doesn't work.

No, it works. Just you're you're probably doing it wrong. Um You probably didn't do your research. You probably skip some steps. Uh and and with marketing, uh the more steps you skip in the marketing process, just like with a logo, a lot of people wonder why a logo can cost, you know $5,000, but you can also go to fiber and get one uh for, you know, uh 200.

That's because those guys on five are skipping a lot of steps, And and those guys are fiber are appropriate for a particular type of client, right? And I would say that somebody who is starting up a small business um and you know, but doesn't have a whole lot of income and revenue, uh there's kind of just starting out, but they need a logo, right? You go to fire, you don't need to be paying anybody 3000 bucks, 5000 bucks to get a logo.

Um But but so so yeah, so I would say um that because they're skipping so many steps, you oftentimes get a product that subpar and it depends on where you are in your stage of growth, whether that's appropriate or not.

But I think that if you're going to do anything, the differences is logos aren't necessarily um built to give results, they're built to uh set the stage kind of for experienced purposes uh For consistency purposes, it's a visual cue uh to the to the client.

Um But that's not nearly as important as marketing because your marketing has to be the you can't settle to the random acts of of marketing, especially if you're paying for those Random master to be done, because you end up wasting more money than anything else and you won't get results.

Uh You wanna start with a strategist, and then a strategist from there will essentially help you put together a comprehensive plan. Um and then, you know, you will catch up with that person that started doing random acts of marketing a year ahead of you.

Uh, if you if you do, and I'm gonna say, it's gonna take a year year planning, but if you take your time and plan, you'll catch up with anybody who started before you, uh, just doing a bunch of stuff that wasn't comprehensive or coordinated.

So, at what point, especially right now, where as Covid hit, and then now it's, you know, if we're on that second wave ministries have just been holding tight to funds and not doing anything right? That's kind of been the motion of a lot of the ministry space.

At what point should ministries, especially right now be coming alongside and maybe outsourcing some of this stuff, or continuing to move forward with things in house, Like, at what point do they come on bring on an agency to help out in this space? Um And at what point is it okay to just learn and be patient and do things on your own? Um Yeah, I mean, I guess it depends on the level of expertise that you have in the house, but to answer your initial question or what you referred to in your initial question um Honestly, man, so when the pandemic hit, I started spending more money, uh not less because I, I realized that there was an opportunity that was going to be short lived, everybody was going to be in the house, which means that everybody is going to be spending more time online and that's probably not going away and ah everyone was going to um essentially be on social media.

So that was an opportunity for me to reach a greater number of individuals and also provide resources that would address their concerns. Um And and and begin to build that trust to let people know that we were trustworthy institutions.

So I would say that um six months ago to your, at what point? Um but it's still not too late. Um the opportunity isn't as right um now. Uh but it's one could argue that this as ripe as it's going to ever be again in a sense, because because because just because you didn't act when you should have acted initially, doesn't mean that you should just give up and not act now.

Um So, so I would say people should be doing something as soon as possible and if they're gonna start somewhere, they need to start with the strategist, because when it comes to um storing up your money, like investing in marketing is not like investing in the stock market.

All right, they're appropriate times to take your money out of uh stocks and hold on to them if you really know what you're doing and you have a good financial plan there, that that sees that. But a lot of financial planners would tell you to continue to continue investing, uh or don't take your money out because when the market recovers, you'll get in trouble.

Uh And and that's that's a little bit to learn from my year and financial planning. Um So, but because it kind of reminds me of the parable of the talents uh where instead of investing it, uh, the individual just buried it.

Um And and and and it seems to me that holding onto your funds, um It could, could be based on fear. It may not always be. I'm sure there are some unique, unique situations out there that what, that, that might, it might be appropriate to say, hey, we need to like, we need to, yeah, stop spending for a while.

We need a spending hall, and, and, and, and, and that's probably appropriate for everybody to do when this first started, right. Um, to, especially if you were not in good financial health, uh, to get a little bit more conservative, don't stop completely, but just get a little bit more conservative, uh, and make sure you're being more intentional.

But I think that that's how we should always act. So, um, to make a, to, I guess what I'm trying to say is that when you, um, are holding onto your funds and not investing, uh, what the Lord has entrusted you with, um, you're not being, it's, it's possible that you're not being a good steward, um, and when you're in, when you're just throwing money around, uh, and just giving it to anybody who says that they can help you without doing your due diligence and without doing your research.

Uh, you're also, uh, potentially being a bad Stewart of defines that your donors and that ultimately the Lord has entrusted in you. So you, you just have to be, you have to be strategic, you have to be thoughtful.

Um, and you just can't react to the climate or to what, you know, people are saying. So just because other nonprofits are not spending money right now, um, you know, if there are ways for you to invest your money, um, and invest the resources that you've been blessed with in order to reap more, I would say do it.

And that's a good segue to the next part of the question because I think you see, um, one, there's, I think a little bit of a fear that in the marketing space, everybody and their mother is an expert in the marketing space, especially right now.

Where uh you know if you're saying you're expert at any one thing, you know, I would be weary of that just because the mark, the the landscape is constantly changing. So you know, if you're if you've got someone telling you, we're going to guarantee results, that might not be the best way to go.

But that segue to this next question. How do you make sure when you're looking at agencies are looking at people strategist or a marketing firm to come alongside you, partner with you, help you as a ministry leader, executive, whatever have you.

What are some characteristics that ministries can can or should look to in the market in marketing agencies. Mhm. Yeah, so I think they want to look for marketing agencies that expect to be held accountable.

Um I I think that's really important. Uh And also marketing marketing agencies or or even freelancers that are set up to to have the experience um to work with your particular ministry. Um Because in the nonprofit world there are so many things that are complex.

There's often times to a lot of people who know that what you know what you and I have experienced that marketing tends to be under prioritized and and and the individuals who are uh looking for agencies don't already really know what they should, you know? No.

Uh So there are a lot of individuals who are looking to take advantage of you. Um I think I think on the on the flip side joe if you inform yourself within reason um an informed person who did not know anything about marketing could do a few things.

Um The first thing is they should say hey we need to figure out what our goals are because some of these are just good business skills. They overlap with marketing. Uh But they're but they're not gonna marketing um um Doesn't have um uh I can't think of the word I'm looking for right now.

They overlap with marketing but it's not solely um a marketing exercise. So the first thing you want to do is is look at your goals and make sure you have some clear goals. And and I always encourage clients to use the smart goals methods.

Um Because I think that's um a super helpful way to make sure your goals are uh specific um to make sure they are measured. Um to make sure they are attainable. Um To make sure they try to remember there are um reasonable, yeah, attainable, reasonable.

And um, they can be tracked. I think the tea is for track. Um, but, and, and the reason why is because sometimes goals are too broad. Sometimes goals are um uncompleted, unreasonable. Like and, and, and so when you're, when you're putting out your goals, especially when you're dealing with a company that you expect to hold accountable, you want to make sure that you have a, um, you want to make sure that you have a plan in place uh, to to set yourself up so that you can communicate clearly.

The next thing that you want to do if you can is you want to um define exactly what problem it is that you want them to solve. All right. Um, and then from there, once you lay out, hey, here are goals, here are problems.

Um, you want to allow them to speak into that. Um because you may think that your problem is one thing. Um but a marketing person with um um with some knowledge and some uh some insight may diagnose the problem differently.

And you want to be open to that individual, being able to speak in that because it has to be a partnership. Um And and if you don't see it as a partnership, if you're just looking for someone to execute tactics for you, uh then that's an individual that you can't hold accountable.

And the reason why you can't hold them accountable is because tactics assume that a strategy has already been established. Strategy assumes that a problem has already been properly diagnosed. And um essentially if you've, if you've done all of that work, and the only thing that you uh the only thing that you want the agency to do is to execute tactics uh then that means that you're accountable for those results, not the agency.

Um But if you want an agency to come in and say hey I've we've been having these problems. It's kind of like a doctor, right? Um uh So so if you want to if you want to hold your doctor accountable you can't tell your doctor what's your diagnosis is.

You can't diagnose yourself and then tell the doctor to give you some medicine. And then when the medicine makes you sicker right, you blame the doctor. It doesn't work that way. And then I also think to that at the very least a good agency if you try this tactic and say hey I know I got a strategy in place.

I have you know this and that I just need you guys to execute um a good agency will at the very least, um, let you know that they're not accountable for results and some might not even work with you because they don't want to waste, they don't want to be the ones to waste your time or waste your money.

And, and that's, and that's usually the position that I take because I don't have a lot of time. Um, and I'm not working with nonprofits just for the money. Actually. I want to see winds. Um, so if if, if we, if my agency which is, and I think that's the primary thing that we kind of bring to the table, uh, strategy.

Um, because that's the part that I bring to the table. Um, but if, yeah, if I, if I have a nonprofit that doesn't want to partner and collaborate when it comes to strategy, um, I won't work with him. Mm.

Uh that's something that we see pretty often is we come in Yeah. To a relationship with a client that wants say they want a website, but they are often times just unwilling to go through the uh messaging process, the strategy process and they just want their website to be prettier.

But you know, if at the end of the day, you just have a prettier website that's not functional, it's not a user experience that's going to get the user where you want them to go. It's not gonna be informed and driven by clear messaging and clear strategy to move that user to the goals that you have set out on this site.

That new website is irrelevant. It's just prettier face on an ugly, dysfunctional system. And so, and that's why we are constantly pushing back and pushing against that. Hey, I just need a new website.

Well, no, you need to restructure your messaging because it is incredibly unclear. Nobody knows what you're doing, you know, as a marketing agency or a digital agency or creative agency. If I don't know what you're trying to say and what you're trying to communicate, how can I help you market and communicate.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So it happens, it happens all the time. So, um, that's, that's really good. That's helpful. Um, now with that being said, this marketing landscape that we are living in is changing pretty rapidly.

And, and there's always new things to try, How can ministries be innovative and try new and creative marketing strategies, wow. Being responsible and accountable with donor funds. Because I think that that is some of the fears that hey, we've got donor funds, we just need to be really careful how we spend this money most of the time.

The money all just goes towards whatever cause they're working to solve. And, and there's none left over for marketing. So one standing on marshall, what's that? Also get new donors as well? Yeah. Like how, how do we one get them marketing in general and spending money on marketing.

And then too, there is, there need to be to have funds designated towards being innovative with your marketing and trying new things because every single ministry is unique. How you reach that. Your donor base is going to be unique from just doing the same thing as charity water or I.

J. M. Or World Vision. Right? Yeah. And, and to be honest, man, you mentioned them and I'll say that briefly, I love charity water. Um, they can't be replicated because what they do work for them. But you can tell that they've been extremely thoughtful, uh, and innovative and, and often times um ministries are afraid to be innovative and I don't know if that's a I think that I think that's a I think that's especially true amongst christian ministries.

Um It seems to me uh the word, even though even the word innovation uh sometimes scares them. And I actually wrote an article um about this uh for life way um resources uh right before the pandemic um big epic.

And when the pandemic came from another article, because I knew that that this wasn't was an issue um amongst christian ministries, um I I think that that fear that you referred to have not one to spend donors uh money is it can be I love I like it when it's when it's cautious, right? Uh but at some point you need to act and at some point you need to make a decision and you can't allow your, your fear two, ah, your fear of, your fear of failure in your fear of making the wrong decision, uh, keep you, um, stagnant freeze you right? Because when you're doing nothing, um, your may look, one could say you're not losing money.

But yeah, that's, that's just because you're not losing money doesn't mean you're being a good steward. The bible was clear on that, right? So, um, and, and even if if you try and you fail and you've done your research and, and, and something just didn't work out for whatever reason.

I think God is still too pleased with that earnest attempt. Um, and I think most of your donors, um, uh, probably would be okay with you trying new things and failing, um, because the people who give up that transparency, right? As long as long as that transparency.

Yeah, we tried this thing and we thought this was a good idea. We did our research. We thought that this was gonna be a great marketing tactic, marketing strategy, and it just didn't work out. You know, we're bound about it.

We're not gonna do it again, but we're not gonna stop innovating and just be communicative with your audience with your donor base. Just be truthful and honest and transparent with how you're spending those funds and they're gonna appreciate that and say, hey, go for it.

Try it again. You were honest with us. Like that's all we want. We want that communication. Um, and I think that that's where ministries get in trouble as if they're trying innovative things and not being honest about that space.

Yeah, I completely agree. And I think what they forget is that a lot of their, and and this is my experience. At least a lot of your top tier donors, your major donors. Oftentimes business people who understand that there's risk involved, right? But, and sometimes that risk pays off really well.

Um, so they want to see you, uh, trying these things. One of the, one of my favorite parts about RTs is that our board is not made up of pastors or professors are, board is made up of, um, christian men of God, like character who are all for the most part businessman, uh, entrepreneurs, real estate, uh, moguls, uh, these, these guys know their stuff.

So it's all, it's oftentimes refreshing, um, when we're engaging these guys because they get excited when we're trying something different. Um, and I think that's really helpful. So, um, yeah, I would say you kind of got, you got to have that mentality.

You got to be okay with failure and you have to be okay with saying, hey guys, we messed up. And I think again, we've just third time charity awards come up. But this is one of the things that they actually did.

Um, I think they had a failed campaign or they had done something where they just kind of missed the mark. Um, and they communicated it uh, to all of their donors and it was very transparent, very transparent communication.

It was, it was refreshing, actually ended up receiving more funds uh, because of their transparency. I thought that was really cool and I think ministries tend to struggle with that unfortunately, and and and we we have to get over that barrier.

Um, of number one, being afraid of failure and number two, uh, being unwilling to admit when we failed or uh, what I've seen is done a few times here and there is to blame the uh marketing agencies or the contractors.

That's I think that's part of the reason why marketers and you know, outside people tend to get a bad name um, is because everybody is looking for a scapegoat. Um, and I understand that pressure. Listen, I'm not, this is not a judgmental at all.

Um, but you know, you got to look at the entire story to make sure that is a shared responsibility or is this my or is this my decision? Is this my my fault? Um is this something I need to take ownership of? And some, and sometimes it is the agency uh because there are a lot of bad agencies out there.

So there are a lot of good ones too, I think. Yeah, definitely. Well, Philip this has been really, really awesome. I think that this is going to provide some value for mystery leaders. Some guidance and direction and just some encouragement.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for being on the show. If uh, if people want to learn more about you or what you're doing with Highest Good or follow you with RTs, how can they get a hold of you? Yeah.

So you can check out my um linkedin page. Um just look forward filip homes. Uh, you can also check out my website which is under construction right now, but highest good creative dot com. Um and if you have any follow up questions, you can even email me at Phillip at highest good dot c.

O. There's no m so dot co. That's Phillip. Two else at highest good dot co. Perfect. And I'll, if you're okay with it, I'll put the all that in the show notes. Yeah. Except for the email you got online box of course.

Um, well thank you so much. Can I pray for you and what you're doing please? Absolutely Father is lift up Philip and pray that you would guide and lead him as he pursues highest good media and pray for him as he leaves the communications team at RTs Father pray that you would just make clear the path that you want him to go with these teams that he's leading, that the work that they would be doing and communicating, um, to their audience, to new clients or potential donors or people that want to be a part of RTs Lord, that they would um, just have clarity in the direction they're going.

That the work would be effective, um, that they would be able to help ministries in the highest good space and that they would be able to help students get a great education RTs Father The thank you for his willingness to use his gifts, talents and abilities for, for uh, kingdom work Father, I pray that you would bless him for that.

And uh yeah, thank you for this conversation and I pray that it would be valuable to ministry leaders and executives and marketing directors Lord. We love you so much. Thank you that we get to be a part of this in jesus name.

Amen. Hey mom Philip. Thanks so much for being on the show man. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Zach, I appreciate the invite. Bye. Thank you for listening to this episode of the Ministry Growth show.

If you enjoyed it, we'd appreciate it if you rate and review us on the Itunes store and make sure you subscribe. So you never miss an episode. If you have a story to share with other ministry directors and pastors or know someone who would be an incredible guests on the ministry Growth show, let us know.

We love connecting with ministry executives and sharing their wisdom and insight with our audience. Just send us an email at info at Reliant Creative dot org. And lastly, if you need help telling your ministry story, we would love to share how we can help in that process.

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