Michael Sugihara & Mark Chassman from Emerging Leaders Initiative – Transforming Consumers into Contributors

In this week’s episode of The Ministry Growth Show we talk with Michael Sugihara and Mark Chassman from Emerging Leaders Initiative (“ELI”). ELI is a leadership development and discipleship ministry based out of Chicago, Illinois. In this episode, Michael and Mark share their insights and expertise in transforming consumers into contributors, relationship-centric discipleship, and how […]

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You're listening to the Ministry growth show brought to you by Reliant Creative, the creative agency for Gospel centered ministries. Find out more at Reliant Creative dot org. Welcome to the Ministry Growth Show, a podcast dedicated to helping churches and ministries grow and make more effective impacts for the Kingdom of God in an ever changing digital world, whether you're building and growing a gospel center ministry or leading a church, if you want insight into the strategies, struggles, challenges and successes of other ministry leaders, you've come to the right place.

Welcome back to the ministry Growth show Today on the show, I'm going to be talking with Michael Tsujihara, he's the executive director of emerging leaders Initiative and Mark Chapman, who is a co founder and coach of the organization guys.

Thanks for being on the show. Thanks for having us. Yeah, of course. So can one of you tell us a little bit about the ministry and maybe share what God is doing through you guys currently? Well, I'll be happy to start.

Um just quick background story to kind of give you an idea of how the ministry was created really from the, from the beginning, I was, I grew up in Los Angeles, kind of Hollywood area, my dad was in the entertainment business, so I was kind of had this vision of pursuing a full and abundant life kind of through that lens.

Uh I struggled and and had what I would call a crisis of faith in my mid life, in my forties, did grow up with a faith life at all. I was grew up in a culturally jewish home that was really not about the teaching and of of of what God teaching, of the bible, old testament or new, um and kind of in that crisis, someone who is obedient to God, carrying out the great commission came into my life and uh disciple me, I spent about two years in that process really just from a relational context, came really interested, not only in the things he was trying to teach me, but mostly interested in him and the way he modeled his life And from that I found my colleague kind of left 25 years of traditional business life, corporate life and started to feel this buzz around, you know, kind of what is my calling, what is it that I should be doing for you, go God and uh kind of through that process, been on this journey uh and now been on this journey for 10 years uh l I was confounded with some others, including Michael about five years ago officially, and that's how we kind of got launched into doing what we envisioned doing, which is helping all experience the promise of christ, which is life to its fullest life to abundance.

Um, and all that Michael, maybe speak to kind of what we're doing, you know, today, some of the things that we're seeing. Yeah, awesome. Well thanks for sharing Mark and I love it because I think so much of the work that we're doing is really tied to our own stories and the stories of others and the background for me, Zach.

Uh, I came into this as Mark said alongside him and others and stepped into this role of the executive director at the time where we, I didn't have a whole lot of things that we were directing. I'm really seeing a vision and desiring to help others experience the fullness of life.

And for me though, I think what I realized that there was always this kind of constant back and forth, this tension about kind of this idea of what an executive director or a leader was supposed to look like, or what a for example, a christian leader in ministry was supposed to look like.

And and my own experience, actually, a lot of the things that I saw in leaders wasn't what I saw in myself, um I didn't I wasn't, for example, a charismatic leader or someone that I saw myself up on stage and there's a lot of things that really just I would say hammered at kind of my own sense of value and worth.

And I was really by going and experiencing what this uh organization eli has really been about for a number of years now that I started to actually unlearn some of the things that I thought were true, unlearn some of things around what leaders look like, what christians look like, how we actually are able to show up in our fullness and to be able to experience true freedom to be able to actually know and understand what God thinks of us and value that more than what others think of us.

And to be able to step with boldness and courage really into the many ways that he's calling us to be impactful for his kingdom and to see real change happening in our in our lives and the lives of others.

And so I think what we've really seen over the last years in particular as people experiencing freedom to be able to live, are aligned with how God has designed them and to move beyond simply me what their childhood told them they should be or should do or what their schools did, or even sometimes their churches and really understand what it means to follow jesus and to do so seeking him and not necessarily the approval of others.

Very cool. So, on the ground, like, practically, what is it that you guys do? Yeah, so for us, it's really oriented around a few kind of key aspects and one of them is really just an intentional, consistent relationships.

We call ourselves, kind of eli and eli community, because really about how do we bring people together, those are desiring to pursue jesus uh, into experiences across differences, to really be able to uncover and discover who they are and ultimately why they are here.

And a lot of that, again, really happens in the context of small groups in coaching relationships as well as through an ongoing engagement with others as a part of this community, and really a number of different ways that we desire to help people to discover, again, we call who's they are, which is ultimately gods, who they are and what makes them unique and specific in their design and why they are here, um and ultimately how they can apply that into all the different ways that they impact and influence in their spheres of influence.

That's really cool. Uh so a lot of coaching, a lot of mentoring is there, is there like discipleship models that you guys are using within, within what you're doing? Oh Denmark, you want to speak to some of the inspiration there? Yeah, absolutely, so um we, you know, we've taken inspiration from the right people, most importantly jesus and the way he went about actually, you know, building relationships with, with people, uh meeting them where they are serving their needs and then taking them on a journey to become something more.

So it's the fisher, you know, the fishermen, to fishers of men kind of approach to doing things. We keep our construct. When we start off in this journey we call Discovery, we keep it small. So we usually have one guide and we have two people who go on this journey together um so that we can create the intimacy uh the authenticity, uh the depth of discipleship that we desire to help people create by building relational construct or relational context and then as they go through the discovery process, which Michael said is really about helping people understand who they are, who they are and why they are.

Then they start to get some seeds about, oh I'm here for something greater than myself. After they go through that experience that we have another experience, we call the activate face where they now are part of a group and and now that group is a we are in this together trying to not only understand our design and our purpose, but how we might care that forward for God's plans and and and Greater Kingdom purposes.

And then they enter a third phase, which is called The United Ignite Face, Excuse me. Which is really where this coaching comes in and uh kind of spearheaded that effort. We now have three other coaches and we're growing that that group because our whole efforts are to turn what we call consumers into contributors in our community.

So most of us start out and sit in the pews and we are consumers. Many, few of us are showing up in and then contributing to the body as a whole. And so that's part of the expectation of what happens through a process and really what happens in the coaching.

It's it's these are people who are on fire to live fully into God's design and purpose for their lives and to do it with others and we basically, so what I call wisdom seats um and wisdom is simply the way we think about it is scriptural solutions to human problems.

So every problem is a wisdom problem, is the kind of way we look at it and the word of God is the wisdom of God and so in that coaching relationship where we can show up and we already have a shared experience, we can really go deep and help people see what might be getting in the way of living into that fullness or experiencing abundance of life and the way that they might desire to do that.

Mm Now this brings up a question for me that is maybe a little bit off topic of some of the discussion questions I sent over offline, um but as a discipleship organization, looking at the the the reason I bring up this question up is because it's come up a lot in our podcast, so it's been like forefront of my mind, it's been coming up in conversation quite often, and so this idea around discipleship in the Western church being centered around the pulpit, how do you, would you guys, how do you guys think about that and how do you guys, you made a comment, consumers to contributors? I think there's a culture within the Western church that is consumer heavy.

Um so how do you guys envision moving the Western church away from that model and getting the, the body more involved in discipleship? What what is your mindset around that, what do you want to do that can do it? Yeah, and I think Mark mentioned as as much as we can with all humility, right? We seek to look at uh models of jesus, the model of jesus as well as continued models of discipleship.

One of a kind of the helpful initial inspirations for us is actually a book called transforming discipleship biographical ogden and this real mentality around not only hearing the word and hearing what it means to be a simple but also doing and acting in that and really seeing how it's that continual process of being, coming aware, understanding, responding and acting, that produces new fruit in our lives and the lives of others, that being a disciple of jesus, not simply hearing uh to your point about from being in the pews are being on a sunday service, but it's really that process of doing, we see that by the disciples that the following of jesus involved their whole life, following him, following him with others and ultimately inviting others to follow Jesus as well.

And so as much as we can bring that concept of discipleship into the work that we do, it's really this process of helping someone to begin or continue to deepen their following of jesus, to help them to follow Jesus and his model of leadership together with others and then they have practical ways that they can also begin to then invite and guide others to follow jesus as well, and we believe that all of those really work together in this idea that when we grow, that's when we're able to actually grow others and how do we continue to provide tangible practical ways to take what we learn or listen to you on a sunday or I guess now it's on podcasts and Youtube and actually make that a weekly practical action and then to really discern with God and spirit what he's doing and how he's bringing new awareness to us as a result of the actions that we take.

Interesting. That's really cool. Now the, the individuals that take uh, take part in your programs or or get involved with your ministry, what does that generally look like? Is it a lot of business leaders or just kind of anyone looking to figure out and find out their identity in christ, what does that kind of look like for you guys? Well, I've got a story that I could tell.

Can you a sense of actual individual who has been on this journey with us now? Probably, you know, since the beginning, um, he started out thinking that God was calling him to do a church plan on the west side of Chicago, uh, went training vehicle, got his masters in divinity there and then ended up getting a denomination to help him from his plant.

And uh along the way, uh he got to a place where he was realizing that he was not fully equipped to kind of bring that organization, bring that new church plant to life and really struggled with it. And so he came and got involved in an L.

I went to this discovery process to really again help them understand who God design and purpose in to be his natural thinking was because it was something that, you know, he grew up in a church life, church family that the natural place for him to show up would be as a church planner within his community and and through this process of helping him see himself and his design differently.

He ended up shifting completely, his his emphasis and focus in terms of serving into God's calling to become an urban education reformer. And so what we do is we come alongside people and we helped them help really show up and live into what we believe is kind, you know, the Clearest calling that comes from from the Bible that we possibly can look, which is a fees since for 12-16, which is to fully equipped and perfect God's people are the saints for works of service to build up the body of christ, therefore the church until we reach oneness in the faith and what we help people understand is how they fit into that, how they get fully equipped based on how God has designed them to then serve in an arena that God has designed for them.

And oftentimes it's a lot of this, it's a lot of breakthroughs and realize, you know, I was going down this path, as Michael said, because I thought that's what I should do, as opposed to I should go down this path and serve God's kingdom, because that's what God designed me to do.

And so there's an example of just kind of one person who's been on this journey. The idea that we are community is that people realize that once they have this kind of support in their life, they need it, um and they continue to design, desire it and we want them to have it, but we want them to shift their approach from being a consumer of what's been given to them.

This kind of clarity in this kind of reinforcement of how to live more fully into their life. But now to give that back to others and help facilitate that either through coaching or group facilitation or becoming a guide in our Discovery Process, and that is how ultimately this this this this community thrives and grows and continues to move forward.

Yeah. Mhm. Now, uh, your ministry is a bit unique in the ministry sector, in that you're not uh, you know, directly fighting human trafficking or developing a child sponsorship program. Some of the more popular routes to go.

Um how do you guys handle donor development? And do you find challenges fundraising for the uniqueness of your ministry? That's a great question. Thanks for asking zack. And so I think for us, we think about I've done a development really at the heart of it, um, is relationships and we think about all the work that we're doing, we are desiring to and and seeking to serve every person that we come in contact with, whether it be a potential donor or potential individuals are part of our program.

And I think one thing that Marx spoke to um is that we we love that we get to serve a diversity of people and in that right, any number of people can grow and move as a part of al. And so every conversation we have gets really oriented around, how is that person being led by God to grow? And if that, for example, leads them towards wanting to partner with us financially, that is awesome.

And we want to cultivate that and help them find ways to do so if they want to engage in our in our programs and then by engaging in that desire to give back and pay it forward. We love that as well. And so it's really been an organic growth of different avenues of revenue, whether it's been through individuals through foundations and people.

And really it's the individuals who either been impacted or those who they are impacting as a result of how Eli has made a difference in their life. And so it is really through kind of say, the fruit of artwork that we see God developing and growing providing for this organization.

And those who are financial partners with us are ones who are actually are primarily the ones who have been impacted or those who have been impacted by those who have gone through hell I as uh as an organization.

And so I think for us, it's really a unique space to fit where again, we're not a formal local church, we're not a formal, say, leadership development entity, um but we're kind of in the intersection of both of those in terms of work, life leadership and really a faith oriented community and we've seen God really draw resources in any number of ways by being in that intersection.

Mm. That's interesting now. How how do you guys differentiate and maybe separate yourselves from a traditional leadership development entity? Mhm. Well the differentiation is that how we do what we do, so how we do what we do is very much you know in and around doing it in a together framework, you get on boarded in our process by being part of a community and in our like we said, we create the intimacy among three a triad to begin that journey because that's where we find that people are willing to start to develop relations connectivity and then therefore go deeper in their discipleship.

Um and so that is a big part of how we do what we do. It really leans into kind of this the theme of the now which is which is the principles don't necessarily need to change in terms of how we develop leaders for the church or we disciple for the church, but the systems absolutely do need to change and the systems are the practices by which things get done that are therefore then derived from those principles and then now what we recognize, especially with the generations that we're dealing with in the cross section of people that we're dealing with, is that if we're not first and foremost putting relational connectivity first, then the things that we're talking about of consumers moving to contributors, which aligns back again with the great commission, which is for all of us to go out there and make disciples, it doesn't happen.

And so this is where we show up and that makes us different, is how we do, what we do, makes us different. Got you. Uh obviously growing organization like this is, this is not easy, it comes with its own challenges and struggles, so would have been some of the hardest lessons that you guys have learned.

Uh starting out building this organization, Mark, I want to speak to uh creamy and then I'll speak to once I came in the picture. Well premium is this construct, this concept of of of not casting a vision but casting a vision, holding it tight enough because others want to change your vision or or alter your vision, but holding it also loose enough so God can speak into your vision.

So what I mean by that is, you know, we as individuals or human beings tend to think small and operate small and operate safe. God is a big God as we know. Let me learn. And God is not looking for people who are equipped to do what he desires and he's looking for those who are available to do it and not only available to do it, are willing to be trusting enough and and his lead to do it the way he desires it to be done.

And so this has been a journey for a period of time where God has made this expansiveness of of the vision for what it is we're doing come about. And so it's this, this tension between holding the vision or, you know, holding the vision type, but holding it loosen, I forgot to speak into it and then keeping people feeling like, you know, they know where they're going, helping people understand where we're all going together.

And then the second part that I would say is what we talked about before, we are so used to being great consumers were not being, we're not great contributors as those of us in the church. Again, our systems and our constructs with kind of pulpit ministry is really a function of how, you know, our leaders were educated, just like in our higher education system, we have instructors, um we're not about having instructors were about coming alongside you and helping you feel cared for, and in that process helping you grow and then through that, encouraging you to take a role and guide and lead as well.

So, I think, again, just working against breaking with kind of, the status approach to people learning and growing and and adopting a different way of actually learning and growing. Yeah, mm. Offline.

Oh, go ahead. Sorry, I would say for me, just real quick, um I accept enough for me real quick, but it definitely there's a personal, I think Reality of what's challenging in this. Um, and I'd say probably for myself, coming in as a 26 year old and trying to ultimately figure out how to build and grow this ministry, I would say that, you know, most of my time, I think I spent questioning my ability to actually do so there's right, this concept of imposture syndrome and the reality was in the spaces that we operate in even Chicago, that most of the leaders didn't look like me as a, as a most important, for example, japanese american Or 26 or young or didn't, you know, have all the credentials and the degrees.

And so there was this constant intention of even this need to confront and be able to overcome my own doubts of self, my own. Uh, I guess conceptions of should be reading about all the books of entrepreneurs working hundreds of hours, right a week, and and thinking about why am I not able to do this or why am I different? And so I think all those challenges, even internally have certainly limited and got in the way of me actually living into how I can leave this organization by trying to lead in a way that was how someone else might do so and coming into contact and coming into conflict with that on a daily basis and confronting, I think a lot of the lies that I was believing about myself and not the truth of God um that I think I needed in order to be free.

Mm 26. That's incredible. Where did you step into the position as the executive director at 26? I did. I think it was it was our first role that we've had on our team. And uh and Mark was a mentor of mine before that and someone that I really caught a lot of the vision that he had for this organization.

And I think the question he asked me that some member to this day was I was in the process of actually the starting between this job and another job and what the question you asked me was, do you feel God leading you to build something or do you feel about leading to to build something within and established I guess something and at that time really feeling like the perceived risk of stepping into this, that perceived unknown was what God was really going to use to challenge, stretch and grow me And he's done all of that and more.

And I think there are a lot of things, especially in the last four years that I know that I would not have experienced both highs and deep lows, but all of that is really pushed and drawn me closer to him and realizing that what I'm 26 or 76.

I need God more than ever and he is the only person that I can fully trust and want to trust to leave this organization. Uh, and I think that speaks to your mark, your belief in this vision like disciple ng disciple in Michael coming alongside him and raising him up and trusting him to the point to put him in the position of executive director over this organization and vision that you had for what the lord was leading you into.

That's um, that to me that just seems like a testament to your belief in this call. Well, I'm part of it is what, you know, the first part of it is, is back to the principal right? And what jesus modeled for us in terms of succession.

Uh you know, he was there with a ragtag group of 12 people for three years and then obviously he left our earthly world and they carried forth, you know, obviously a major movement that is billions and billions of people today.

Um and and so he knew from the beginning, his intention from the beginning was to have the others succeed him in the carrying forth of this ministry of this mission. And so this began with Michael and I early on just building relationship and in that relationship, talking about the things of life and through that relationship, talking about the things of life in relation to the things of God.

And so he and I we'll be able to be able to bless by that kind of model, jesus model for how he built relationships, showing care for another. And then from that care, drawing a commitment from those that that other that aligns with what their design and purpose to do.

So, it was easy in that construct because started out with that principle and then it ended up with Michael again, realizing that this is this is of him, this is something that he desires. I really even need today struggle with kind of these traditional titles of executive Director because I know how they work in most ministries, they've got a board, they tell the Executive director what they're supposed to be doing and that Executive director carries out, you know, the board's wishes, Michael is leading this organization.

Michael's bringing the energy, he's bringing his spirit, he's bringing his fullness of vision to what this is about. And he is helping mold it, helping it become a diverse, very, very uh, unique organization that I could have never done.

And the board that was here in the beginning before Michael came into this position, could have never brought it to where it is today. So it's also being able to recognize that God has created amazing people and the full use of the body, all aspects of it is what is able to bring about greatness in the kingdom.

And so we're hoping because again, we're not perfect, but we're hoping to be able to be somewhat disruptive in the way other industries, right? Look at what they're doing. Um look to the next generation as as as the immediate future, not the future, 10 years, 20 years down the line, because of their way to look, they look at the world because of their heart, because of their soul, because of their ideas, because of their ability to engage in diverse communities, because of their ability to engage technology in ways that, you know, those shoulders like us, elders like us don't really have a comfort with.

Um and so we're hoping that that comes out of our modeling, but if we're excellent at what we do, then God will take care of whatever that is. Yeah, that's great. Uh it's cool to see it modeled within the leadership of the organization.

Um Offline, you shared a topic. Uh I'm interested to explore a little bit further um and that is disrupting the quote unquote supposed to narrative. Uh if you've touched on it a little bit, can you? Um Well, we we've touched on that quite a bit.

How are you guys helping leaders to break through and find who they are designed to be and then and then the result of that. What kind of kingdom impact are you seeing when when these breakthroughs kind of take place? And that's that's the question I'm really interested in hearing from you guys about Yeah, I can go first here.

Um so I think we've spoken to this quite a bit in terms of the kind of intentionally relational um component of this, you know what is right in the context of our groups or of our coaching really is again, trying to align again and again with how jesus disciples and so this component of it, of really living life together as well as asking really strong questions, um staying curious and being able to bring the word of God and the holy spirit into those spaces to do really incredible, amazing things and so we do truly believe that first and foremost we don't change or transform people, God is only one that can do so in an amazing way, he allows his to partner in him with him, in that by asking questions, by challenging, by confronting and being able to help individuals first, I think I mentioned before become aware.

And so for us, that's the first step is actually helping individuals become aware whether that be a part of their own experiences and how that's shaping, how they think about the world themselves, that our leadership, whether that's aspects of tapping into tools like strengths, finder, or I guess Clifton strengths, it's called now, or anagram personalities.

We see them all as useful tools that are not prescriptive, but can be descriptively useful to help people understand more fully how God has designed them and what that actually means when it comes in contact with other people.

And so we focus individually on individuals in terms of kind of their own self, how that then relates to others in relationship. And then ultimately, that carries forward into organizations, companies, Communities and systems.

And so for us, it's really helping and people to come aware, helping them to more deep in their understanding through different engagements with individuals across the board. And then ultimately, this kind of idea of what is than the action they're going to take as results.

And that's really where we see God bring about incredible breakthrough. And just as a really, I think awesome example of that, there's individual that has been a part of the L I for a number of years now, and they were really struggling with the idea of confidence.

They don't have a lot of examples in their life of people that look like them, or that sound like them having success or being able to really grow and influence and impact. And it was really that first step of actually doing something and trying something that kept holding them back and it took about two or three years, but really this cultivation of them not only understanding who they were in christ, but becoming to see that as worthy as of dignity, as beautiful as a value.

Um and then people around them providing safe spaces, courageous spaces for them to try that this individual is now creating multiple opportunities for others to do the same thing. They're hosting webinars that are drawing tens of people to experience a limitless belief.

They're hosting podcasts, inviting leaders to come and share how they've overcome limited mindsets and beliefs, and they're also engaging in coaching for people that have approached them about how can I ultimately get to where you are in your mindset, in your belief and able to weave in his own story into that process with them.

And so from that time with the l I this individual is now impacting way more people than than than just himself because of being able to move past and breakthrough would have been a limiting mindset, limiting belief for him in the context of these experiences.

That's really great. Well, this has been awesome, I know that you guys have another engagement you have to get to, so I'm going to wrap things up. Um can I pray for you guys in the L I absolutely thank you, Father is lift up L.

I. And Mark and Michael, they lead this organization to pray, that you would give guidance, that you would give direction, that you give clarity of vision, father, and and that they would just continue to run hard after what you've called them to and pray.

That lives would continue to be changed and transformed and um that we would continue to see a um just a shift in how the church views discipleship through LS work Father, that the entire body is called to be a part of that process and not just um church leadership and so thank you for their willingness to jump in and be a part of what you're doing.

Thank you that you invite us into that Lord, it's so incredible that you've invited us into the, into your work into your redemption work and so we thank you for that. Um I just pray blessings on on this organization and these two guys, Lord, thank you, jesus name Amen Michael Mark, thank you guys so much for being on the show.

If people want to get a hold of you or learn more about the L I, how can they do? So yeah, they can go online at www dot E L I I dot community or also email team at L I I dot community as well. Perfect, well, thanks again guys for being on the show and we wish you guys the best.

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